Habsburg Resurgence: The tale of an alternate Deutscheland. (Preliminary discussion)

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 13, 2017

Hi everyone! I was thinking doing a TL where the Habsburg dynasty stay in some sort of power til today. This is not specifically an Austria-Hungary tl, but if it isn't to implausible I'll think about it.

Here's my issue, though. I'm stuck doing this on my phone and can't find a good map maker app. Unless I want entire countries annexed based on modern borders. So I'll need someone who can make maps for me. So mildly collaborative there.

Also I'm having difficulty with a POD. I want it before the Great War, but after 1900. I was thinking during the Bosnian crisis, but I only know Wikipedia's opinion on that matter. Any ideas?

EDIT: I decided to start a new thread once I actually start updating. This is a bit messy. Don't want people having to wade through all that just to he to the first update.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 13, 2017

Now that I think on it a little, perhaps a map of Europe in 1908 (but saying it is on the eve of war in 19whatever) would work at first. It'd have to be public domain, of course.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 13, 2017

Update: found better Bosnian crisis info.

EDIT: If I want this POD, then I'll need to do some research, but it could be useful. Just every time I try to think it through I lose my thought train.

Insider · Apr 13, 2017

Some research? Ha! I've read four book on the topic, went ASB for ease and cannot keep update rate because of lags in research.

Cannot help you with the Map, but I would like to be here if one is found. Preferably one with both political borders and rivers on it.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 13, 2017

Insider said:
Some research? Ha! I've read four book on the topic, went ASB for ease and cannot keep update rate because of lags in research.

Cannot help you with the Map, but I would like to be here if one is found. Preferably one with both political borders and rivers on it.

I figured something out.

EDIT: I am at work, so it'll be a few hours though. The internet will likely be fixed where I live by then.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 13, 2017

Do you think it's possible for that deal to work out between Austria-Hungary and Russia almost came to OTL where Russia will recognize Austria-Hungary's annexation of Bosnia-Hersegovina if AH allows Russia to use the Bosphorus Straights freely, even during war?

Mikestone8 · Apr 14, 2017

Grammar Kaiser said:
Do you think it's possible for that deal to work out between Austria-Hungary and Russia almost came to OTL where Russia will recognize Austria-Hungary's annexation of Bosnia-Hersegovina if AH allows Russia to use the Bosphorus Straights freely, even during war?

How could Austria-Hungary deliver its side of the bargain? It does not control the Straits.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 14, 2017

The deal was basically both would look the other way, if not outright support each other, in regards to the ambitions (or lack thereof) of each.

Josephus · Apr 14, 2017

Perhaps as a POD avoid the Serbian putsch and keep Serbia in the Empire's orbit instead of Russia's?

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 14, 2017

Josephus said:
Perhaps as a POD avoid the Serbian putsch and keep Serbia in the Empire's orbit instead of Russia's?

Some elaboration so I can research this butter?

EDIT: Wait, do you mean Ottoman, or Austria-Hungary?

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 14, 2017

I think I have it this time. Just to test the waters:

The POD is in 1903. The May Overthrow in Serbia is attempted, but fails. Maybe the queen is still killed. King Alexander I is at governmental thingamajig so the coup attempt fails (as the first sentence said). A later blunder on Russia's part during the Bosnian crisis ( to be decided) sends Alexander firmly into Austria's camp. I need to think on the repercussions of this a bit more.

EDIT: Would Alexander I react to the Bosnian crisis the way Serbia's government did OTL, or would he just see the writing on the wall? A-H had occupied B-H since 1879 I think.

DOUBLE EDIT: I could have Alexander barely escape the coup, but not not his wife (I keep forgetting her name). Upon learning of the coup's Russian leanings, he pivots directly into the Austrian camp. I think I'll go with that.

TRIPLE EDIT: By pivot to the Austrian camp I mean he runs to Austria-Hungary.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 15, 2017

Just so everyone watching this knows, I'll probably get the first update out on Tuesday or Wednesday.

I figured out the POD. I might have a better detailed version in the first update, but here is the gist of it:

1903, a conspiracy in Serbia sought to assassinate King Alexander I of Serbia and his wife, Draga. IOTL, they succeeded and many members went on to form the Black Hand Society. ITTL they fail, Alexander escapes (though Draga doesn't) and rallies some loyalists around him. A civil war ensues, with Austria-Hungary intervening on behalf of Alexander I. Russia tries to intervene in 1904, only to be dragged away by the Russo-Japanes war. In 1905, Great Britain forces the two sides to talk it out. In 1906, the treaty of Belgrade is signed, ending the war in Alexander I and Austria-Hungary's favor.

I'll have a bit more later, I have to go to work.

Halagaz · Apr 15, 2017

Kinda hard for someone to fight a civil war when no one in the country wants him to be King...let alone to fight and win a civil war.

For that matter, not sure why A-H would suddenly care about Alexander's welfare - they disliked him ever since he married Draga, and in OTL the coup was carried out with the foreknowledge of the Austro-Hungarian government.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 27, 2017

Halagaz said:
Kinda hard for someone to fight a civil war when no one in the country wants him to be King...let alone to fight and win a civil war.

For that matter, not sure why A-H would suddenly care about Alexander's welfare - they disliked him ever since he married Draga, and in OTL the coup was carried out with the foreknowledge of the Austro-Hungarian government.

I intended for the Austrians to just blunder in to prevent a swing to Russia, shoot the wrong people by mistake, and wind up on Alexander's side as a result.

The people helping Alexander kick him out afterwards, anyway. They just wanted power for themselves and took advantage of him.

Mightyboosh5 · Apr 28, 2017

I'd say it's fairly possible to have a civil war in Serbia, one reason that the plotters refused to let the King live is because they feared loyalists would start a civil war with him as their leader. A three year civil war would still probs be impossible, Serbia is much smaller without Macedonia/novi pazar and has no industry to speak of or population to sustain a long war inside its borders

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 28, 2017

Mightyboosh5 said:
I'd say it's fairly possible to have a civil war in Serbia, one reason that the plotters refused to let the King live is because they feared loyalists would start a civil war with him as their leader. A three year civil war would still probs be impossible, Serbia is much smaller without Macedonia/novi pazar and has no industry to speak of or population to sustain a long war inside its borders

Yeah I started to think that the civil war was too long after I made the post. Just figured I'd wait for someone to point it out. Just in case.

Musketeer513 · Apr 28, 2017

Keep me posted.

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 28, 2017

Musketeer513 said:
Keep me posted.

Sure. I'm gearing up to start the TL thread now. I'm liking my POD (just have to tweak it). I just have to wait until Tuesday probably because that's my day off.

One thing: I was wondering if Austria-Hungary just blundering in and accidentally winding up on Alexander's side is plausible. Are they capable of such stupidity? I mean they started WWI, but this seems a bit ridiculous. Even for them.

Halagaz · Apr 28, 2017

Mightyboosh5 said:
I'd say it's fairly possible to have a civil war in Serbia, one reason that the plotters refused to let the King live is because they feared loyalists would start a civil war with him as their leader. A three year civil war would still probs be impossible, Serbia is much smaller without Macedonia/novi pazar and has no industry to speak of or population to sustain a long war inside its borders

Almost the entire Serbian population cheered the coup; the plotters were also secretly backed by 2 out of 3 of Serbia's parliamentary Parties (the third Party disliked him even more, it's just that no one told them about the plot), and supported by well over half of the army.

A 1903 civil war to preserve Alexander's rule would be extremely unlikely, if maybe not impossible. And such a civil "war" would last 3 weeks tops, on its own. Would be more of a civil bar brawl.

Grammar Kaiser said:
One thing: I was wondering if Austria-Hungary just blundering in and accidentally winding up on Alexander's side is plausible. Are they capable of such stupidity? I mean they started WWI, but this seems a bit ridiculous. Even for them.

Eh, that actually sounds believable enough. Vienna abandoning Alexander in the first place was already a considerable misunderstanding/act of stupidity (in terms of Habsburg interests).

Grammar Kaiser · Apr 28, 2017

Halagaz said:
Almost the entire Serbian population cheered the coup; the plotters were also secretly backed by 2 out of 3 of Serbia's parliamentary Parties (the third Party disliked him even more, it's just that no one told them about the plot), and supported by well over half of the army.

A 1903 civil war to preserve Alexander's rule would be extremely unlikely, if maybe not impossible. And such a civil "war" would last 3 weeks tops, on its own. Would be more of a civil bar brawl.

Eh, that actually sounds believable enough. Vienna abandoning Alexander in the first place was already a considerable misunderstanding/act of stupidity (in terms of Habsburg interests).

Yeah, Austria-Hungarian blundervention is the only way Alexander had a chance. I then planned for the Austrians to Install someone else anyway. But who?